Co-Sell That Sellers Crave

We unpack how to make co-selling irresistible to sellers using specialised partners, scarcity-led door openers, and playbooks that slot into daily workflows. Alex Buckles shares tactics for ISVs, SIs, and platforms, plus smarter recruiting, incentives, and a sane way to use AI.

• Why sellers ignore partner intros and how to fix it
• Building co-sell playbooks from executive priorities
• Crafting a door opener with clear monetary value
• When exclusivity and specialisation create loyalty
• Keeping AEs and CSMs engaged with useful touches
• ISV path via SIs and delivery play embedding
• Horizontal expansion plays across many partners
• Rethinking partner sourced vs influenced rewards
• Practical partner recruitment using LinkedIn sequencing
• Manual-first process, then targeted AI automation

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Transcript

Maciej 0:51

Hello, welcome and thank you for tuning in to Channel Voices, the podcast of future channel leaders, where we learn the ins and outs of partner ecosystems through casual conversations with channel professionals from a variety of industries, partner types, and geographies. My name is Maciej, and I'm your host. Alex Buckles, welcome to Channel Voices.

Alex Buckles 1:31

Thanks for having me, Maciej.

Maciej 1:34

Lovely to have you. Alex, would you mind just quickly introducing yourself, telling us a little bit about your channel background, please?

Alex Buckles 1:42

Sure. So my name is Alex Buckles. I'm the CEO of a company called Forecastable, and uh we're a professional services organization, a tech-enabled service that um helps B2B company stand up and execute really tightly aligned co-sell motions. Um, in terms of background, um I'm a 20-year enterprise sales veteran. I've actually never held a partnerships role in my entire career. Um, I just figured out early on in my career when I was selling in the SAP ecosystem and um subsequently twice in the Adobe ecosystem, how to get pipeline from my partners. And it usually didn't involve working through the partner managers. I just figured out how do you get to the sales teams and how do you show a strong what's in it for them, make sure that there's incentive for them on their side. And I just got really good at that. And over time uh we ended up forming a very, very niche uh focused business on helping others do that, but more from a sales perspective and less from traditional channel.

Why Sellers Ignore Partner Leads

Maciej 2:36

Fantastic. Thank you so much. The co-sell motion is super popular right now, and obviously a lot of partnerships professionals recognized that it's one of the best motions to go to market with. In terms of partnerships, many of those teams struggle to activate sales, right? From your experience, what are the top reasons sellers often ignore partner-sourced opportunities? And how would you fix that?

Building Co-Sell Playbooks That Work

Alex Buckles 3:10

I feel like the challenge, well, there's a number of different things there, but the the challenge that most partnership professionals face is they don't really know uh how to go about putting, you know, you know, partner-centric motions in the hail in the hands of sales in the way they that they want to be enabled. Um, you know, and I found that um what we do every single day is we build co-sale playbooks. And you know, we have a playbook for everything. And a playbook is not a battle card. It's uh when I get on to go create a playbook for a customer, I usually get into, especially a new customer, I want to learn like what are the executive priorities for the year? Are we trying to win net new, maybe in a specific vertical? Are we trying to drive expansion plays? Um, do we have retention or churn issues that need to be addressed that maybe we can create playbooks for? And once we get that list of priorities, then it's about you know figuring out, okay, which partner or partners are, you know, are best suited or are the subject matter experts in that particular area. And it's usually like a services partner or an SI or GSI of some type. And what I do then is I do an hour-long interview with the partner and and and the customer and kind of go deep on, you know, what what's what pains are we solving together for the buyer, what personas are involved, who do we need to win in terms of you know, hearts and minds by a persona. And the the output of that is we have a co-sell play. And that co-sell play has all, you know, a bunch of boring details about ICP and how do you identify the right accounts that that would be a perfect fit for this motion, could involve intent data, things like that. But the most important part of that is what we call the co-sell door opener. And the door opener is essentially uh a message or you know, it's the outbound communication that either a sales rep or a CSM is gonna go put in front of an account that says, hey, you know, we know you're a you know a you know a large insurance company, and uh we've created this experience that'll help you know you uncover, you know, revenue leakage or you know, whatever it may be. I'd like to invite you to an experience that um that'll help you kind of uncover you know that revenue leakage. And normally our partner, you know, insert SI Company A charges you know $5,000 for this, but we're gonna cover it for you. Um and I only have a few of these to give away this quarter. I thought about you. Um, would you like to take advantage of that? I'll pause there for a second to see if you have any questions about it. But in general, that level of messaging that creates scarcity and exclusivity, and you assign a monetary value to it, sales reps and customer success managers almost salivate over they're like, oh my gosh, yeah, I definitely want to put that in front of my accounts. And that's usually the beginning of a wonderful co-sale motion.

Maciej 5:50

That is pretty cool. I like the door opener, I like the scarcity that this type of messaging creates. And obviously, from the get-go, you are not saying that I'm gonna sell to you, you're saying we have a partner who's just gonna sit down with you and do an analysis, right? Whichever direction you want you want to take it, they'll they will be there for you and they'll tell you what their what their findings are out of this, and then if if you're so inclined, we can talk about you know what their recommendations would be in terms of how we could solve this for you. That's how it typically plays out.

The Door Opener And Value First

Alex Buckles 6:31

Absolutely, that's correct. You don't want to show up and be like, yeah, this is not a sales situation, this is a you're not doing a demo, you're not like just doing pure discovery. Um, you're simply adding as much value as humanly possible to attempt to fix some type of pain or uncover some type of insight that the buyer has. And the output is something that we review together. It's like, hey, we're gonna, we're gonna give you this high value thing that's worth paying for, but and so that they should value it. And if you've done the interview correctly, you've really honed in on what that value is. And it leads to a very organic type of sales cycle versus the let me just go show you a demo, do some discovery because I know I want to sell you something. It's a very different experience.

Maciej 7:08

When you come in and start sitting down, obviously vendors typically bring you in to do this co-sale playbook. How do partners typically typically respond? Do you have to drag them or are they typically quite open to this?

Alex Buckles 7:24

Um, sometimes you have to drag them. Um uh, but most of the time, especially if we're working with like a large platform company who has you know a large ecosystem of service providers or SIs, when that large platform company invites you in to go do this co-cell, you know, this co-cell activation workshop, they normally feel very special. They they understand that it's an opportunity for them. Um, you know, because a lot of times you're trying to always get and maintain the attention of the platform sellers. And it's very difficult to do if you don't know how to do it properly. And this is a really great way to get your foot in the door, meet new sales teams or customer success teams. You're gonna get some pipeline along the way. And when we have that first early success, even if a platform company only buys one playbook from us, uh, you know, and they just want to try it out, which is how most of them dip their toe in the water. Once they see success, they're like, okay, let's like pick 10 more and let's go. We want to go pick competitive ripping replaces, let's go do net new, expansion, retention, and um, and everybody gets excited.

Maciej 8:21

Do you see those co-sell motions typically being more on the exclusive side when it comes to you know the partner ecosystem? It isn't kind of rolled out flat to everybody, typically partner tiers, some sort of some sort of status plays a role whether a partner is invited into a coastal motion or not. How do you how do you see this? And how have you seen vendors prioritizing the ones to invite into a program like this?

Alex Buckles 8:54

Sure. Great question. Um, so one on the exclusivity side, um, yes, there can be exclusivity in some of these motions, uh, and it happens kind of organically. Um, case in point, I've got a customer now who's a small professional services organization that's co-selling in the HubSpot ecosystem, you're right. And so you're not, you know, you're not used to seeing, you know, seven-figure ARR deal sizes in that ecosystem. But, you know, uh what they did was they created a they specialize in banks and credit unions. So specialization is really key when it comes to tightly aligned co-sale motions. Um, generalists need not apply. Um, they usually don't co-sell very well. Um, and in their case, they have the the AEs or what they call growth specialists at Hubspot, you know, give them account names that are on their target account list. And the partner does all the research and puts together some proprietary data they have and gives this readout. So they approach the account with something very, very personalized and relevant. And in that case, because the the partner is using some of their unique IP and their in-house resources, it can't be replicated across other partners. And so that's a really cool way to go to market. And if you have, if anyone who's listening to this has a specialization like that, that's where you win over and above your competitors. And that's how you gain access to teams. And that's how you also keep other, you know, other competitors outside of working with the AEs and the CSMs that you're working with at the large platform company. Now, you know, there are plays that can be created that are more horizontal in nature that can be applied to multiple partners. Um, as an example, um, expansion is a really common one. So let's say we've got you know 50 generalist services partners in an ecosystem that are really good at, you know, at with your product, and you roll out a new feature set or a new cross-sell opportunity, um, you can create a motion that allows them to go into their customer bases with you know a motion that helps them cross-sell a new product while also creating services revenue for them plus referral fees. And so that's a more horizontal motion that that isn't, it doesn't is not exclusive.

Getting Partners Bought In

Maciej 10:58

I specifically like the point, and I took a note of this, that it actually creates a better level of loyalty with your partners because they buy into this co-sell motion and takes them away from working with um with competitors, right? That mind share actually gets directed towards that coastal emotion with this particular vendor.

Alex Buckles 11:24

And the mind share is the most important piece. It's like you can develop that initial co-cell playbook and get some early success. But oftentimes, even when there's early success, um communications fall off the radar, the partner has other priorities, they forget to stay in touch with the AEs or the CSMs. And at the end of the day, all almost all of your referrals are going to come from individual contributors. I don't care who you are, what company you belong to, like who you partner with, it's the frontline people that are interacting with prospects or customers every single day that are in the position to make a referral. And so, in order to make sure that they're, you know, uh enabled to articulate you know, to identify when you're relevant and to articulate why you're relevant in that moment, you've got to stay top of mind. And so, you know, engaging them on a regular basis for every customer, we create engagement plans. How are we going to add value to their lives on an ongoing basis and not just say, hey, at the end of every month, like you got any deals for me? Like that you'll get that that becomes annoying really quickly.

Maciej 12:18

Yeah, absolutely. That's the that's the old world of typical resale, right? When the pipeline dries out, typically the cams are tasked with, okay, go after your partners, ask what they're working on. Can we get any deal reg's in, right?

Alex Buckles 12:33

Yeah, it's all about me. Go go in there. Like you can't make it all about you. It's that that that chip is sale, it's gone.

Maciej 12:40

Yeah, absolutely. You you mentioned this, right? You work across ISVs, um, you know, large system integrators, there's um managed service providers. What's different about how each of these partner types should approach co-setting um to maximize results?

Exclusivity, Specialisation, And Loyalty

Alex Buckles 13:00

So let's chat about your standard ISV. So when we're dealing with a customer who's just a, you know, they're not they're not a big platform company, they're just an ISV that usually has integrations with, you know, many platforms, but they usually have a couple focus ecosystems that they want to break into. They often believe a myth that they're going to um that they're gonna be able to, all the sales reps at you know, at Salesforce or HubSpot are are going to feed me business because my technology is so awesome. Um, that is not the case. Very rarely, in fact, will an AE bring you into a deal from a large platform company unless they cannot win that deal without you, then and only then will they bring in an ISV partner. Sometimes you can backdoor your way into the pre-sales organization. And and if your technology should be in an architect's mind as they're scoping out, you know, uh, you know, a deployment, then that's a cool way to backdoor your way in. That's so that's a more common motion in that regard for ISVs. But the most common is about getting the mind share of all the SIs or service providers around the big platforms. So, as an example, if you're, you know, if you're an ISV and you're specializing in financial services of some sort, um, I would go find all the professional services organizations who are also serving that same ICP around, let's say, Salesforce or HubSpot, um, and you start building the COSO playbooks for them so they have your story and your value propositions baked into their core process. You can't just hope they're gonna bring you into deals. It's like, no, get into their slide decks and make sure that your story is a part of their story, and that's how you win as an ISV. On the professional services side, if you're switching gears there, uh, they tend to revolve around big platform ecosystems too, or large SaaS companies. And um, those are the folks that can get great results from going directly to the AEs at the at the big platforms. And usually I start there with it's very, you know, it's not impossible to break in from nothing, obviously. Um, but I usually, you know, I like finding folks who already have some wins under their belts. They're like, oh, I've won a couple of deals with the A with AEs. I'm like, great, that's all we need, or a couple of wins. And that's how we get to a team. And how do we make this repeatable? It's build a playbook around that so you can replicate that same success with other folks. And then we have an engagement plan for every team that they've that they've got, you know, they're connected to at the large platform. And we keep track of all that activity to make sure that they're creating that moat around the team so other competitors don't get in for what they do. Um, the third one are the large platforms themselves. Anybody with a very large ecosystem, we work with them all the time. And it always starts with building one playbook and proving success. But some companies, like we just had a very large CRM company engage us, and you know, we we worked with 25 different services companies in one fell swoop. And that is really strategic because why? You can like if I were the CEO or CRO of one of these big platform companies, I would go to find where we want to win. Again, net new, uh expansion, retention, competitive rip and replaces, like whatever the strategic reason is. Um, go find partners in every single category, build playbooks at the same exact time, all together, and deploy them to the field. And what we do in that case is we actually create a co-sell playbook menu for the platform reps. And so they literally go to a Google Sheet and they see all the plays and they see, you know, row by row, each row is one of the plays, and they can click a link and kind of see which accounts of theirs, you know, might be able to might qualify for that play. And then they have the ghostwritten messaging. Okay, how do you activate the play? Well, send this message to this persona and go ahead and get started. And when you start selling like that and turn and turning it into like handing those reps these plays on a silver platter with very clear instructions, the front lines they salivate over it, they love it, they they want to go use it. It's an easy way for them to break into accounts with unique offerings.

Maciej 16:44

Just earlier you mentioned, you know, vendors used to go to partners, they ask them, you know, you have to deal reg this, deal reg that. We need to see your pipeline, what are you working on? What's coming in this um this quarter, etc.? But uh even with the co-cell play, this could still be partner sourced revenue, right? In terms of your version of that definition for you know partner sourced revenue, like how would you define it? And what would be kind of a more accurate or actionable metric?

Staying Top Of Mind With AEs And CSMs

Alex Buckles 17:21

That's a that's a fun topic because you know, I feel like everybody's always talking about partner influence versus partner sourced. And and at the end of the day, too, you've got these huge companies, uh, the the big platforms that, you know, they're setting this metric of partner source revenue when in fact, you know, they're the ones that have the big marketing machine, like they're the ones that have all the power and the brand recognition. And it's like, I think it's silly. I mean, yes, you can still get partner source, and you know, your some of your partners are going to run events and do some independent things that might trickle in some deals, but they're never ever gonna be at the level that you are. And so, you know, it's I think it's a silly metric uh in many cases. I feel like um this style of co-selling, I'd rather take those partners, go find their unique X, again, specialize, right? Forget all the generalists right now, unless it's a horizontal motion. Go find all the specialized partners. They want to invest in you, they want to go create this deal flow, create the co-sell playbooks with them, and then leverage your big machine to get the playbook distribution. Now, to your point, is that really partner sourced? It could be. I've had some customers that have said, you know, we're actually gonna change our definition of partner source to include these co-sale motions because the partner is investing so much from a pre-sales expense perspective that that uh it justifies them getting partner source credit. I had another customer the other day, we had this topic like last week. I was chatting with a customer who pays out 20% for partner source, and then the partner influence side just counts towards tiering, and there's really nothing in between. Um, and so I suggested, I was like, well, why don't we create a new category and you can name it whatever you want, um, and say, you know what, if you're investing in the co-cell and if you don't want to pay out the 20% and call it partner source, why don't we create a 10% tier? And if you're in one of these motions, you still get some cash, plus you get the tiering credit, and everybody wins.

Maciej 19:09

Yeah, no, I absolutely agree with that. And I there are different ways in terms of how you want to compensate partners on this, but especially with the one play that you described earlier on in um in this conversation, when kicking this off, that door opener that you talked about, you say, you know, we're gonna take on the cost of that. Really, the cost is carried by the partner, right? Because they're doing all that upfront pre-sale work and whatnot. So they have to be compensated at the minimum just for this, right? Never mind the actual sale if if if if it gets to that point. So that's a very interesting discussion. I'd say we could spend hours just talking about this, how to how to structure it the right way. And there's probably many different schools of how to do it. Partner recruitment often comes up as one of the kind of most labor-intensive parts of um partner management as a whole. Do you have any views on how you know technology or structured playbooks make that process easier or at least smarter?

Co-Sell By Partner Type: ISVs, SIs, Platforms

Alex Buckles 20:20

Yes, and candidly, partner recruitment is the hardest as a business owner, you know, running a services company, partnering. We deliver partner recruiting services. Some people come to us and they don't have a partner ecosystem at all, and they have some hypotheses around where they could partner. And so it's often when you're doing that, it's like doing the upfront work, come up with your hypotheses, like who's already serving your ICP and things like that, like your ideal partner profile, figure all that stuff out. And then it's standard list building. Well, how many of these companies are actually out there and what personas do we need to get in touch with? And it's easy to get in touch with a partner manager, but what if they may not have one? And so who do you who do you send that messaging out to? And then when you start getting that messaging out the door, you're now subject to the same cold outbound results uh that you know, that as everyone else. And it is hard. Yeah, there's no if, ands, or buts about it. I don't care how much good work we've put into the messaging and the positioning. Um, if they don't open the email, like you, you end up you know getting left with um with it, it's very difficult to go recruit. So I find that LinkedIn tends to be a better source of of recruiting there. And so what we'll do is on our side, we'll craft individual messages from you know the CRO or the CEO or whomever from the customer side, and we'll either do the sending for them on LinkedIn and like log into their LinkedIn profile, send the connection requests, or do that. And there are ways to do that smarter. Um, uh, we just started doing something with uh a technology called BDR.ai, uh, which is a technology that can automate, like it's a think about it like sequences, but for LinkedIn. And so I started testing it out late last year where I was like for my own network. I was like, let me see how many partner pros I can connect with and let's get messages out the door. Um and I found that to be a far more effective way of getting things out using automation like that, but in a very structured way. It can also do AI commenting, which I don't like. I think that's silly, you know. Like I don't use it for anything else other than partner recruiting, and I found that that's added a lot of value. Interesting.

Maciej 22:21

I think you know, when it when it comes to the whole concept of co selling, a lot of times if if If the vendor has that in mind is being, you know, the main go-to-market strategy when it comes to their partnerships, that should open a lot of doors because it shows the commitment and the investment that the vendor is willing to put in for this particular partnership, right? But for the partnership leaders listening to this, what would be the one simple but maybe powerful change that they could make this quarter still to improve their coastal alignment and start generating pipeline faster?

Alex Buckles 23:07

Um we teach this stuff and we have free courses on it too. It's it's really about that co-sell playbook development. And and you haven't done it before. If you think you build a co-sell playbook, you probably haven't. We like it's in the way that we're that we're doing it. It's very, very unique and we have lots of efficiencies. Um like we had over 300 companies come through a program last week where we teach everything that we do every single day. We teach how to build the playbooks. We've built custom GPTs that that take, remember earlier we talked about it's important to get, you know, figure out the executive priorities, then it's partner selection, and then it's the one-hour interview where you go deep, deep, deep. Don't merge one pages, don't do silly things like that, don't just let marketing do it in a silo. Um, you've got to do the one-hour live interviews. And then we've built some custom GPTs that we hand to customers and others in our courses that that can help them take those transcripts and any other collateral they have and turn them into real true COSEL motions. And once you have kind of that, you know, the COSOL playbook developed with all the, you know, the ICP and all that criteria, and you've got your door open or like the ghost-written messaging that invites that buyer into some type of lightweight experience that produces an output, then it's about testing it with the front lines. So, as an example, if um I was chatting with somebody this morning that wants to co-sell in the Adobe ecosystem and they want to start getting distribution there. Um, they're a huge um tech company too. So two big tech companies trying to co-sell with one another. And I told them that, like, why don't we go find an SI that is an SI that's that's perfect for you. They're already a great partner, high tier, and let's that, but they're also a high-tier Adobe partner. And let's go build a motion for the customer success organization at Adobe, where the ghostwritten copy is actually be sending out by customer success to invite customers into an experience to, you know, for whatever, you know, whatever that experience is. And once we've proven value and customers like, oh yeah, I love combining the data from Company A with the data from from into the you know AEP, you know, Adobe's Adobe's technology, then you've got the not only do you get distribution for you know company A, the other big tech company, not only do you get distribution through Adobe, which is what they want, but you then start opening up the doors to net new code cell motions. Because once it's successful, you then take that SI, the same SI you just did it with, and you turn it into a net new motion, and now you've got use cases and proof points and things like that, and you get more distribution there. So it's it's wonderful.

Maciej 25:30

Thank you. That's a very good takeaway for for everybody listening to this. Uh so I do appreciate you sharing this. Um, there's two more questions that I need to ask you. Both of them I have to ask. Let's start with the one which is absolutely standard for every single guest. What's the one thing you wish you knew before you started your career in channel?

Alex Buckles 25:52

One thing I wish I knew is how hard it is. Uh candidly. Like I um for me personally, you know, it's like when we started Forecastable eight years ago, we started out life as a SaaS company. And I, you know, I'm a career enterprise seller, so I built all this SaaS that that that I thought I was solving all the world's co-sell problems. I'm like, this is exactly how I would co-sell, and this is all the tools that I would need to go do it, but nobody knew what the heck to do with it. And when I started getting introduced to partner orgs and things like that, I remember it was like uh Q4 of 2022. So we're going back a few years. I'd done this big event, um, you know, and at a partnerships event, we did big sponsorships and things like that. And I opened like 70 some odd opportunities. I closed absolutely zero of them because I was in the partnerships org and dealing with partnership personas. And yes, they can be our buyers many times, but I didn't realize the how big the disconnect was between partnerships and sales. Such a silo. And this side didn't know how to talk to this side, and you really needed to create some type of mechanism that brought them together. And the CO-SEL playbook does that because it finally gives them something they can put in front of sales that sales understands and they appreciate, and it just creates this wonderful relationship. And I didn't know how hard it was going to be to figure that out, but it took me, I think, three years to figure it out.

Maciej 27:11

Appreciate you sharing that with us. And the other question that I need to ask you was left for you, unknowingly, um, that it is going to be you, but it was left for you by our previous guest, and that was Margaret Adam, um, on the episode around AI and partnerships. And her question is twofold and goes like this with all the noise and activity and how fast things are moving, how do you individually avoid the AI overload? And then the second part of it is how do you make sure that you are staying on top of it and being able to apply it, but are staying focused and purposeful?

Rethinking Partner Sourced Revenue

Alex Buckles 27:56

That's a great question, or two questions, really. Um, so one is I actually don't, I you know, I don't let myself get distracted by all the new shiny things out there. Frankly, I don't care. Like uh it's like if somebody surfaces something to me in my network that says this is absolutely awesome and I know you'd care, Alex, like I'll pay attention then. Um, but I don't distract myself with the news of all the hottest, latest AI things that are coming out. And so, and you know, so I still don't distract myself with that stuff. And we don't do it not only for our service delivery operations, but I mentioned we have SaaS behind us as well. We're a tech enabled services company, and I don't distract our engineering team with that either. It's like there are millions, because there are new technologies coming out all the time. What we end up doing both on the tech and on the services delivery side is we prove uh everything we do out manually first. And so, like, well, there's a new shiny object that comes out and says it can do things. I'm like, no, let's go build that process manually first. Let's feel the pain of not having AI involved in our lives while we go deliver this outcome. And once we can deliver the outcome that we want consistently, then I'll then and only then will I then seek an automation product or some type of AI solution that that is focused on one or two very specific things that we need to solve for as a business. And that really answers the second question, too. Like staying on top of it is we are very in tune with um the needs of the business. Like our head of operations, like is always looking for where are we experiencing pain, what is taking us time, you know, too long. And she makes a list and then we go through it together and start figuring out where we need to introduce new technologies that can solve for those pains.

Maciej 29:32

Fantastic. I appreciate the answer. I'll make sure that Margaret knows um that you answered it in in this episode. Uh, I'm sure she will appreciate it as well. So thank you for that. And in a similar way, no, we're after after this episode goes live, uh, we're gonna have a next guest. And what question would you like to ask of them?

Alex Buckles 29:53

I didn't think about this one, but I feel like after our entire conversation today around co-selling, I feel like we should be around co-sell. And I'd love to ask the next person to share, you know, where they have where where do they have the most co-cell success? An example of the most successful co-sale program, what was the output um and results from that? And then I would love for them to describe co-cell failures. What have they tried to start and where where were the breaking points when they tried to go stand up co-cell motions with partners that just maybe never really took off? And what were the reasons behind that if they know?

Maciej 30:26

Excellent. We'll make sure to ask that one of our next guests. Appreciate that, Alex. Thank you so much for coming on the show. It has been a fantastic conversation.

Alex Buckles 30:36

Thank you for having me today, Maciej.

Maciej 30:41

Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Channel Voices. I hope you enjoyed today's conversation and gained valuable insights. Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Every bit helps us grow and reach more future channel leaders like you. Thanks again, and we'll catch you in the next episode.